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Post by Randalla on Mar 11, 2012 18:52:51 GMT -8
Ok, to start off on hopefully the right foot with this particular topic, I'd like folks to feel free to tack up some interesting research materials you've found during your time, that has to do with the religion or spirituality, or scientific point of view, of your choice.
I've described myself in the past as spiritual rather than religious, and before that, even, as Gnostic Christian. I've looked into Wiccan and earth based religions out of curiosity, and a few other things very very briefly, not enough to really get a really great idea of where I might want to narrow down and focus.
So personally, I'm still a bit aflutter, and haven't really found my calling yet. I'd find it interesting to look into some of the things other folks have found interesting or useful, even if only to broaden my own horizons a bit more.
So share, enlighten, and be enlightened.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 11, 2012 19:16:22 GMT -8
I've never had to do any research, but that doesn't mean I don't look into my own faith.
I'm Roman Catholic and I really love my Christian faith and Church. Essentially, you can summarize the focal points of the Catholic faith in the Nicene Creed:
If anyone has any questions on what part of the creed means, I'd be happy to help. If you have questions in general, I'd love to help as well.
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Post by Randalla on Mar 12, 2012 0:20:49 GMT -8
I somehow suspected you would be the first to reply. Discussion: The Council of Nicea occurred some 300ish years after Christ. This Creed was ultimately adopted, while some commonly held beliefs (and texts) by other Christians, let alone other faiths, were discarded, and those who didn't willingly adopt the Nicean Creed at the time were exiled, excommunicated, or worse. Obviously as the core of your particular religion, you believe in this Creed--but do you have any thoughts on the beliefs and gospels that were discarded? Thoughts on this quote: "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Who's "us"? Thoughts on the Church's position toward women? What's the authority the Church uses as the basis for not allowing women to be ordained, especially in this day and age? Go into a little more detail about baptism, and the responsibility of the parent(s) to make sure their children are baptized. If you're curious, I wasn't baptized, and the maternal unit sometimes ponders this little dilemma. That should do it for now, since it's almost 2am. LOL
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 12, 2012 7:26:26 GMT -8
I somehow suspected you would be the first to reply. You know it. Discussion: The Council of Nicea occurred some 300ish years after Christ. This Creed was ultimately adopted, while some commonly held beliefs (and texts) by other Christians, let alone other faiths, were discarded, and those who didn't willingly adopt the Nicean Creed at the time were exiled, excommunicated, or worse. Obviously as the core of your particular religion, you believe in this Creed--but do you have any thoughts on the beliefs and gospels that were discarded? From Christ, Peter was given the authority of God on earth. The keys to the heavenly kingdom. Christ also gave teaching authority to the apostles. From Peter and the apostles they handed their authority on to their successors, and to the next. This is known as apostolic succession. What had happened is as the church grew older and began to branch out, some priests and bishops were not holding strong to the original teachings of the Christ. Why? Because there was really no strong central authority because the church was primarily undergrund due to Roman persecution. As Constantine rose to power and embraced Christianity, he let the church grow. This is where the problems started to arise. Heresies were sprouting out in a lot of places. To resolve the problem, Constantine called the Nicene Council to create a single doctrine.
tl;dr Apostolic succession had become confused and there was a needed meeting to bring the teachings back into one.
As for the readings and other "gospels," many of the faithful would write tales of Christ doing things as flowers growing out of people as he healed them. Many times these were people who had seen Christ once or only a few times. They were excited, and they thought that they would write of great encounters that didn't really happen. Some people wrote down accounts that actually happened, but are not in the Bible. They may be true, but they did not necesarily pertain to Christ as the Messiah. They were more table talk discussions; maybe a joke or something.
tl;dr Some excited people wrote down things that didn't really happen, or weren't relevant.Thoughts on this quote: "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Who's "us"? Great question. Christianity holds that God is one in three Persons; commonly known as the Trinity. We do not fully understand the Trinity, as it is one of the great mysteries of faith. We do know that there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or Ghost for some old timers) in one God.Thoughts on the Church's position toward women? What's the authority the Church uses as the basis for not allowing women to be ordained, especially in this day and age? While God has no specific gender, Christ was a male. And he passed his authority onto men. Prophets before the apostles were men. Now, does this mean women are any less then men? Of course not. One of the central figures in the Church is Mother Mary. We believe that as the mother of Christ--and if Christ is God in the Trinity--Mary is the mother of God. We hold her as one of the most important people in history, and she is respected with the highest regard. Do not be confused, however, as she is not horsewhipped, but highly honored. When you say, "especially in this day and age," you must realize that the Church does not sway to the tides of politics or even culture. She hasn't stood for 2,000 years because she changes; it's been like that because she is rooted in tradition. Go into a little more detail about baptism, and the responsibility of the parent(s) to make sure their children are baptized. If you're curious, I wasn't baptized, and the maternal unit sometimes ponders this little dilemma. The Catholic Church believes in one, universal baptism. If you were baptized Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. it's the same. For example, if you were baptized Lutheran, and you wanted to be Catholic, you don't have to be baptized again, just confirmed. Christian parents have the responsibility to baptize their children in the faith and to raise them in the faith. To be baptized is to be sealed in Christ: you become priest, king, and prophet. It is the cleansing of your Original Sin. Great questions! I'm glad people ask instead of assume. So, Rand, I've got one for you. I'm somewhat educated on the subject, but what exactly does it mean to be agnostic?
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Post by phaedron on Mar 12, 2012 19:43:30 GMT -8
Not to talk over you guys, but since my studies of the Bible only extend as far as my readings of The Old Testament in Koine Greek (the language it was first mass-distributed in), there's not much value I can add to a discussion of Christianity, in that the New Testament seems far more relevant to believers today. Anywho, for those who don't know, I'm a Buddhist of the Kwan Um tradition of Zen Buddhism, which is Korean in origin. As far as I know, it's still the largest school of Zen in the United States. You can read more here, if you'd like: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwan_Um_School_of_ZenSome of the best writing I've ever seen about Buddhism though, comes from a lapsed Catholic nun by the same of Karen Armstrong. Her book, "Buddha", was written for her Buddhist sister, and contains some of the best scientific and western-applied mind thinking I've ever seen done on the subject of the first Buddha, Gotama Siddartha. You can check it out here: www.amazon.com/Buddha-Penguin-Lives-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0670891932Perhaps even more strangely, the Stoicism of a certain Roman Emperor by the name of Marcus Aurelius is surprisingly helpful in understanding Buddhism and Zen. Marcus wasn't very religious, but his philosophy is just about as Buddhist as any Roman of that age could ever get. There's a million translations available of his "Meditations", but I'd just say newest isn't always best when it comes to translations. Otherwise, the vast majority of my perspective comes from various old Japanese translations (damn public schools for only offering a foreign language in highschool when I was a kid). I could rant longer, but just ask and ye shall receive.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 12, 2012 20:44:53 GMT -8
So, I'm curious: how exactly does a Buddhist pray? I don't mean to make that sound offensive, but is Buddha prayed to, meditation......many questions I have.
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Post by phaedron on Mar 12, 2012 21:01:56 GMT -8
So, I'm curious: how exactly does a Buddhist pray? I don't mean to make that sound offensive, but is Buddha prayed to, meditation......many questions I have. Nothing offensive there. A Buddhist really isn't supposed to ask for things as far as I know the concept of prayer to be. Even asking for things for someone who is less fortunate isn't quite permitted in my understanding -- you are bound to offer assistance as much as you can, but you can't ask the Universe for fairness any more than you can ask the Sun to stop radiating light. Nor to we pray to the Buddha as if the Buddha were a deity. What the Buddha did is break the cycle of Samsara (in the Thervadan tradition), ending the pattern of life, death, and rebirth -- achieving complete peace and freedom from suffering. Zen Buddhism simply takes it to a more philosophical level -- arguing that meditation is a gateway of sorts to a higher level of knowledge of one's self and the universe as a whole. You may have seen me use this quote before. It's really the only way I've successfully described Zen in the past: "Always open mind, know nothing." As far as the practice of meditation goes, my particular tradition employs sitting quiet meditation known as za-zen (what you're used to seeing), walking meditation, and chanting meditation (more in the Chinese tradition).
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 12, 2012 21:27:53 GMT -8
Very interesting. How did Buddha break the cycle? Did he meditate to an extreme level, or something unknown?
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Post by phaedron on Mar 12, 2012 21:54:21 GMT -8
Easiest question yet. Although it's not in the Zen tradition persay, there's still a basic concept that follows all Buddhist tradition... perhaps just written or presented differently. There are four noble truths. The eightfold path to enlightenment shall set you free. That path is what was handed down to us from the Buddha. 1. Life means suffering. 2. The origin of suffering is attachment [ANY worldly attachment]. 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable [through hard work and good deeds]. 4. The [true] path will lead to the cessation of suffering. 1. Right View 2. Right Intention 3. Right Speech 4. Right Action 5. Right Livelihood 6. Right Effort 7. Right Mindfulness 8. Right Concentration Even though I could try blurbs there based on my own understanding, me trying to explain the Eightfold Noble path would be (I imagine) somewhat akin to a layperson in Catholicism trying to directly interpret the Bible for himself without guidance. That's why we have priests, monks, and scholars. Or in the case of Buddhism, Masters or Dharma Teachers. Dharma literally meaning "the path". In other news, I'm thrilled that this is the only picture available for my Dharma Teacher, Master Bon Haeng (Mark) ... he's uniquely amazingly insightful. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bon_Haeng.jpg
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 13, 2012 8:17:14 GMT -8
You said earlier that Buddha broke a cycle of life death and rebirth. Now I'd imagine that's similar to reincarnation?
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Post by Ernie on Mar 13, 2012 9:13:38 GMT -8
I'm like Max, with a few small variances in our beliefs. I'd only be able to share from my own life experiences to explain why I choose the road I do, but that's a story best shared over a cup of coffee What Max said, holy trinity and stuff. I'm free methodist, we ordain women as pastors. I don't think they shouldn't be ordained, or given the same opportunity to preach. Baptism for "my people" (lol) is just a symbol, we don't think anything changes between you and God, because salvation/forgiveness is an issue of the heart.
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Post by Kippa Tarxien on Mar 13, 2012 10:08:27 GMT -8
I was raised Roman Catholic and remember that in first grade, when I was 6 or so, in school, they told me about God the Father and God the Son and God Something. I didn't trust the last one, his role was a bit mysterious. Even at that age, I had serious doubts about there not being a God the Mother. But my mom told me I'd understand it once I grew older. I didn't.
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Post by Darkslayer on Mar 13, 2012 11:36:33 GMT -8
Thoughts on the Church's position toward women? What's the authority the Church uses as the basis for not allowing women to be ordained, especially in this day and age? I thought I'd add something . Men and Women are of equal value, but they are not equal in the sense that we all have the same skills, lifestyle and views. God created Adam first, to control and run the garden. Then he created Eve to help Adam in his work. So men were created to lead, and women created to help. Don't get me wrong, both are of equal importance and value. You can't have a leader without someone to lead, and you can't help when there is no one to help. That is why there are not many religious leaders who are women. But I would also add that God uses both men and women, take Deborah, who was a judge over the Israelites for her lifetime. So is it okay for women to lead in the church? "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14) No, it is not biblical for a women to serve as the head of a church body. This verse does not pertain to the political and economical side of life though, only to the spiritual aspect of life. In conclusion, women should not have posistions over church bodies. (Yes, in the worst case scenario, it is more important to spread the saving knowledge of Christ, then what gender you are). If you want, take a look at this great article which explains it way better: carm.org/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders
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Post by phaedron on Mar 13, 2012 17:40:05 GMT -8
You said earlier that Buddha broke a cycle of life death and rebirth. Now I'd imagine that's similar to reincarnation? Reincarnation that depends largely on how you lived your last life (with humans generally being considered a "lower" form of life), is a decent "easy" way of describing Buddhism beliefs on life and death in the Indian and Tibetan traditions. By breaking the cycle, the Buddha attained total peace and a freedom from reincarnation. In other words, the final "goal" in Buddhism could be considered to be a lack of existence. In Zen, it's a little more varied -- some don't believe in reincarnation at all, but rather just on the need to improve one's life and one's interaction with the World/Universe as a whole.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 13, 2012 17:46:48 GMT -8
Alright. So, since Buddhists don't believe in a deity, per say, they believe in the general power of the universe. Who or what decides what you're reincarnated into? I mean, what decides how you lived your life?
Another interesting point I only got a glimpse at. I was told (so, my sources may or may not be accurate) that in India the government does not help the poor nearly as much as they should because they generally believe in a sense of reincarnation. If you were born poor it means you were a bad person in your previous life.
Granted, the Indian denomination is generally Hindu, I believe, but do Buddhists have a similar mentality to this?
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