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Post by Randalla on Feb 11, 2013 18:06:15 GMT -8
So the pope is retiring.
St. Malachy prophecy?
Discuss.
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Post by Cerridwyn on Feb 11, 2013 22:08:56 GMT -8
The aliens are coming.
Sorry, I'm up way past my bedtime, and it was the first thought that came through my head, specifically the global deconstruction seen in Independence Day. (Don't remember if Rome was one of the cities shown as destroyed or not.)
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Post by phaedron on Feb 12, 2013 0:42:55 GMT -8
Waiting for Max's thoughts... I'm as shocked as anyone.
Time for Desmond Tutu? Not gonna happen, but it'd be badassery.
If it's a prophecy though, you've gotta wonder if he didn't choose to be the one to fulfill it.
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Post by Randalla on Feb 12, 2013 3:05:42 GMT -8
Or the one to voluntarily step aside for the one who is supposed to fulfill it. Watch out for any reference to Peter the Roman when the replacement steps up. Hehe
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Post by Cerridwyn on Feb 12, 2013 5:26:08 GMT -8
Or if they will purposefully choose someone who doesn't fulfill that criteria. Two from South America and one from Canada have actually been mentioned.
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Post by phaedron on Feb 12, 2013 10:38:56 GMT -8
Someone of Latino origin would be the "smart" choice, since South America is nearly 100% Catholic, and makes up the majority of Catholics in the world according to Jon Stewart last night
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Post by lordmanlyman on Feb 12, 2013 21:13:28 GMT -8
Some people were saying that he's just being lazy.. " I think they said the last Pope to retire was like 750 years ago.?"
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Post by Randalla on Feb 12, 2013 23:03:15 GMT -8
Oh I don't think it was about being lazy, myself.
Bout 600 or so years I believe....
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Feb 14, 2013 11:22:44 GMT -8
Real quick since I'm already running late. Desmond Tutu is not a Catholic--he's Anglican and thus ineligible for the papacy.
Last to abdicate was around 1416 with Pope Gregory.
The reason Benedict abdicates is for the good of the Church; he does not believe he can fulfill the needs of the papacy. But, some point out, John Paul II had Parkinson's and endured, whereas Benedict is much more healthy. The reason: JPII showed us how to suffer and how to die with grace and dignity. Benedict, who has immense power/influence over 1.2 billion people, in better health, resigns. This is to show us an act of humility.
It's unexpected, shocking, surprising, but not necessarily unprecedented. The College of Cardinals (those who elect the pope) have 67 of them elevated and appointed by Benedict himself. Roughly 2/3 of the College is Italian. The fastest growing sections of the Church is Africa and Asia, pointing towards those regions as a possible candidate. ( The CIA believed an African would follow JPII, actually.) Ultimately, the College will elect someone they feel is best suited to support the needs of the Church.
It's a crap-shoot every time this happens. I'm holding out a long-shot hope for Cardinal Dolan, but that's about as likely to happen as it is for Phae to become a moderate. ;D
To say in the least, we over in this Catholic university are ecstatic. As one buddy of mine said, "This is too much for a theology major to handle!"
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Post by Randalla on Feb 14, 2013 19:12:04 GMT -8
To say in the least, we over in this Catholic university are ecstatic. As one buddy of mine said, "This is too much for a theology major to handle!" A heathen like me may see this as surprising, some mildly interesting, some more intrigued or morbidly curious, but I wonder what some of you hard core Catholic types are chattering about. Anything new and different you guys think will come of all this? Why all the excitement?
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Feb 14, 2013 22:53:37 GMT -8
While technically not unprecedented, it is unprecedented in modern history. I mean, this continent hadn't even been discovered the last time this happened. The pope is our leader; one of his titles is Vicar of Christ. He's God's representative here on Earth. We hold him in very high regard. Whenever something might happen, we get excited.
Nothing theologically or morally new that I can think of. Some very powerful and perhaps forceful encyclicals may come, but nothing to the faith may change. Perhaps the next pope exercises the rare ex cathedra....who knows? And that's the excitement.
When Conclave convenes you will have pilgrims flock to the Holy See (tickets to Rome have skyrocketed). Why? Because their next pope, their next shepherd, their next Holy Father, will be elected. they want to see his face. Here's why: an interviewer once asked George Bush what he saw when he looked into Pope Benedict's eyes. Tiredness, wisdom, passion, humility? His response: "God."
I'll be glued to the television the entire Conclave, waiting for white smoke and bells, just so I can hear those two words:
"HABEMUS PAPEM!"
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Post by Randalla on Feb 14, 2013 23:18:49 GMT -8
Don't get too carried away, he's still just a man. I tried to hear the habemus papem thing last time, but my folks are much less interested in Catholic affairs, and turned the channel on me right when it was about to be said. By the time I got them to turn it back, I'd missed it. LOL Ex cathedra--explain?
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Feb 15, 2013 23:17:12 GMT -8
Don't worry; the priests are quick to point out the man's fallibility and that he is, in fact, as you said, mere man.
Ex cathedra is a doctrine in theological infallibility. Basically what this Greek (?) phrase, from the chair, means is that when a pope explicitly calls upon the authority of the keys (that is, the keys to the kingdom of heaven as passed down from Jesus Christ to Peter, the first pope) and declares certain things theological or moral truths, it is such.
Now, this does not mean that if the pope says it's going to rain cats tomorrow he's right; he'll probably brought in for mental capacity. Ex cathedra has been used I believe twice or thrice only.
Church councils and some synods hold this authority of ex cathedra as well, but councils and their mission are established by the pope.
Now, is this to say that unless the pope declares something ex cathedra we don't have to follow it? No. Encyclicals, bulls, and even simple messages carry immense amount of wisdom, knowledge, and truth behind it. Essentially, they carry the same weight of ex cathedra.
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Post by phaedron on Feb 16, 2013 11:26:27 GMT -8
Real quick since I'm already running late. Desmond Tutu is not a Catholic--he's Anglican and thus ineligible for the papacy. Seriously? I've been lied to for a long time and had totally forgotten that Anglicans used Arch-Bishop-y titles. The reason Benedict abdicates is for the good of the Church; he does not believe he can fulfill the needs of the papacy. But, some point out, John Paul II had Parkinson's and endured, whereas Benedict is much more healthy. The reason: JPII showed us how to suffer and how to die with grace and dignity. Benedict, who has immense power/influence over 1.2 billion people, in better health, resigns. This is to show us an act of humility. I assume you say this because it's his stated reason, and as an adherent to the faith, your role is to accept his word as being that of God on Earth. Correct? Again, the way the church treats the role of inquiry and science in the world could really use an update -- I agree with Rand that no man is infallible, even one with an illustrious record (such as Teddy Roosevelt, who kinda massacred some Mexicans with Gatling guns). Listen, the stated reason *sounds* nice -- but if humility is what they were trying to teach us, Benedict wouldn't have been chosen as Pope in the first place. It's unexpected, shocking, surprising, but not necessarily unprecedented. The College of Cardinals (those who elect the pope) have 67 of them elevated and appointed by Benedict himself. Roughly 2/3 of the College is Italian. The fastest growing sections of the Church is Africa and Asia, pointing towards those regions as a possible candidate. ( The CIA believed an African would follow JPII, actually.) Ultimately, the College will elect someone they feel is best suited to support the needs of the Church. Indeed, we know the Romans will control the papacy, as they always have. The church grows most quickly in Africa and Asia, but their power base is now South America (today) -- seems to me that it would be kinda weird to choose a pope from a growing region rather than the region that has supported you since the Spaniards first started converting "heathens" back in the 1500's. The CIA believes a lot of stupid things btw. They also thought there was no potential risk to the U.S. when we left the Mujahadeen in charge of Afghanistan back in the 80's. Good call there, eh? It's a crap-shoot every time this happens. I'm holding out a long-shot hope for Cardinal Dolan, but that's about as likely to happen as it is for Phae to become a moderate. ;D Ehhhhh, I'd almost become a tea partier before becoming a moderate. Moderates these days are so weak and toothless that they contribute to the progress of this country even less so than the extremists. #thiscountryissoeffed To say in the least, we over in this Catholic university are ecstatic. As one buddy of mine said, "This is too much for a theology major to handle!" Serious Max, Rand is right -- you sound like a teenage girl waiting for the next episode of American Idol.
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Post by phaedron on Feb 16, 2013 11:34:47 GMT -8
Ex cathedra is a doctrine in theological infallibility. Basically what this Greek (?) phrase, Starting with "Ex"? That's basically always Latin, unless you're skipping a word that used to be there as in the phrase "Deux Ex Machina" (DAY-ous ECKH mach-EEN-ah). So if it used to be something like Deux Ex Cathedra (or literally, "God in the Church"), that makes sense, as the root word for church in Koine Greek is in fact "kaht-eh-DRAH". But in the legal counterexample "ex parte", the meaning is definitely from the Latin "from (by or for) one party", where "ex" in Latin means "from, by or for", and in Koine Greek it means "in or of the". Ancient Languages 101 class one is now over.
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