|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 22, 2013 20:23:24 GMT -8
Think she's talking about things like the gnostic gospels? Or really, anything else that was written before or at that time? They weren't anti-catholic at the time, but the church certainly took a hard line stance when it systematically destroyed things it considered heretical...
|
|
|
|
Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 22, 2013 21:33:14 GMT -8
Before? That's called the Old Testament, composed of mainly Jewish texts.
Some of the gnostic gospels offer some interesting stories. But at the time of Hippo, many did not lead have to do with either: a) the salvation of man, or b) were not truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's what the Council of Hippo was for. There was no Bible at the time, but the Church realized she needed some form of written word. So, using the resources they had--including an in depth look into personal accounts, testimonies, Tradition, apostolic succession, etc.--they appropriately compiled a canon for the Word of God.
Guys, ya gotta remember. The Bible wasn't composed as a scientific inquiry into the life of Christ. That's not what kind of book it is. It's supposed to help us understand God and His Plan. The Catholic Church does not purely rely on the Bible for all teachings. Sacred Tradition plays a part too.
Again, check your sources, and where those sources get their sources. I can almost assure you the theories revolving around these super-conspiracies were a time of high anti-Catholicism.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 22, 2013 22:04:42 GMT -8
Inspired by the holy spirit to embrace one text and burn another leaves an awful lot to what one's interpretation of "inspired" is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 23, 2013 8:21:03 GMT -8
Well, I'd try to explain, but you've just been blowing off everything else I say, so I don't see the point anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 23, 2013 9:09:43 GMT -8
Not believing and blowing off are very different things.
You have an explanation about the Holy Spirit, or about the destruction of other sources of research that didn't make the cut into the bible itself?
I got sidetracked and still need to read through the long post. I'm not even out of bed yet. ::Facepalm::
|
|
|
|
Post by Cerridwyn on Mar 23, 2013 11:36:46 GMT -8
The Bible is the work of MEN (note capitals). Someone of them may have been spirit filled, some were probably not and just writing down oral histories they believed. Calling the Old Testament a bunch of Jewish books is showing a level of bigotry I once that was beneath you. I have since learned I am wrong. The Jewish faith which most early Christians came from was all about being Matrilineal (because women bore the children) but Patriarchal. (They were not the only ones.) Early Christianity was actually much nicer about things, maybe because they were persecuted so much. Nothing quite like persecution to see things in a different light. Once they became dominant, the men worked hard to take control back. Many other religious faiths that they worked hard to destroy treated people much more equally. The roles in society might have been different, but there was no ownership of one's spouse. Christians of many stripes have always had delusions of grandeur. They accuse followers of Islam of all wanting to make war and kill Christians, well folks, Christian's have practiced Jihad just as much as others have. That's what the Crusades were all about ya know. And don't get me started on the Inquisition. Want to read a good book? jessicasternbooks.com/books/terror-in-the-name-of-god/ |
|
|
|
Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 23, 2013 14:39:33 GMT -8
You have misunderstood my words. Rand had said:
"Think she's talking about things like the gnostic gospels? Or really, anything else that was written before or at that time? "
I perhaps misunderstood what she said. The New Testament, including the Gospels, were written after the Old Testament, obviously. The Old Testament is indeed composed of many Torah books--Jewish texts. Again, I may not understand what you're saying, because I'm trying to figure out why that is bigoted, to state a fact.
Also: I'd like your sources on the Jewish religion. I myself am not too familiar with the fathers of our faith, as Pope Benedict once said. We share a common heritage and are grateful to them. They are still the chosen people of God. Pius in WWII recognized this, ordering the Vatican properties all over Rome to house and hide Jews during the Nazi occupation.
The Church sees Islam as a brother faith, or cousin faith. They are Abrahamic, believing in the same God as Christians and Jews. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, teach love. It is a peaceful religion, hijacked many times by corrupt states and extremists. That is NOT Islam. Chief Dan Oates of the Aurora police, while in Ann Harbor, visited the mosque the first week there as chief. They were very grateful to him. A few weeks later, 9/11 happened. The mosque called and said, "We are scared. We are Americans and condemn this action. This is NOT Islam, and we are scared others will blame us." He had a town hall meeting convened by the mayor, and the people understood. No attacks on Muslims there.
If you'd like to really understand the Inquisition and Crusades, and actually listen to some scholars, I'm glad to help. I'm reading some books right now and am not finished. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain them when historic facts tend have no bearing in this forum.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 24, 2013 14:15:52 GMT -8
Aye, the first five books of the old testament - Pentateuch - Torah, part of the Jewish teachings. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus (we know THAT book is cherry picked all over the place), Numbers, Deuteronomy. They don't refer to it as "old" and "new" testaments, and what we refer to as the old testament is only the written part of their teachings. I didn't take what Max said to be bigoted, but I don't take anything Max says as bigoted, despite how much I rail against what he says. LOL We do have one or two among us of the Jewish faith, but I don't think we'll be seeing them jump into our little mud wrestling pit here any year soon.  I think Wiccan, Catholic, Buddhist and whatever the hell I am is a pretty decent mix in itself. LOL EDIT: Ok finally had a chance to go back and catch the posts I missed. Metaphor, man, metaphor. LOL And one or two Mary figures in there were just tag-alongs. Yes, it's said that he picked 12 men from an already patriarchal society. That was the norm then, when women were still viewed as property to be wed to whoever could trade her for the appropriate number of cattle--later, a monetary dowry. If he wandered around today and picked his disciples form among today's society, I think he would have a few more independent, free thinking women to pick from. And you know what? I think he would have--and I think he probably did then, too. But it's hard to share power with chattel. But you know what else? I also think like any good Rabbi at the time, it's just as feasible that he did have a wife, and the wedding feast at Cana was a little more than turning water to wine for someone else's wedding. How bout that? LOL EDIT EDIT: Crap, keep forgetting. Islam, religion of peace. As much as I have issues with other organized religions, I have an even bigger issue with this, among other things: Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who can properly present a knowledgeable defense, so we should probably steer away from this particular area unless someone can. |
|
|
|
Post by Cerridwyn on Mar 24, 2013 17:35:07 GMT -8
Just like Judiasm has it's law, Catholicism has it's law, and Islam has it's law, they are all laws of men, not laws of god.
Strict Jews have a big thing about menstruation, about what a woman can and cannot do. They also have dietary proscriptions on Pork and Shellfish.
Catholics have a big thing about birth control and about sex being only for procreation. This goes along with their feeling about the sanctity of life, which they try to define differently than they would have when the white christ walked the earth.
Strict Muslims also have a proscription about pork. Sharia law (did I spell that right?) is very very conservative, but no more so that what Catholicism pushes down their members throats, it is just different.
Throughout my life I have know followers of the white christ of every shape and breed (even those that others would say are not Christians), Jews of various degrees of strictness (Goliath [Durin] is one Rand if you did not know), Baha'i, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu all sorts of different types of Pagans and Shamanistic religions. I have known atheists, agnostics, and various spiritual theists. They were mostly all good people. They were not going to murder your children, or bomb a theatre, or even shoot you with an assault weapon.
I can honestly say I have never known personally someone who practiced Shintoism or one who was a follower of Kali. People are people. And power corrupts. And corrupt religious leaders of all stripes use power and authority to gain control of their folk. It's not unique to any one faith. All are equally guilty.
This is why I follow no organized faith, wiccan/pagan or otherwise. Being a solitary practitioner of my beliefs means no one is responsible for corrupting them but me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Amarynth on Mar 25, 2013 10:10:51 GMT -8
This is why I follow no organized faith, wiccan/pagan or otherwise. Being a solitary practitioner of my beliefs means no one is responsible for corrupting them but me. I ABSOLUTELY love this! Also, I didn't really mean for this thread to become a debate, but it's been interesting reading regardless. So, let me ask this, and it might be an entirely different thread altogether...like the proverbial chicken and the egg... Which do you think came first? Paganism(Or The Old Religion as I've seen it called) or Christianity? |
|
|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 25, 2013 10:49:06 GMT -8
The old religion, as you would recognize it. Christians had to have someone to convert.... Had to get in a quick togue in cheek reply while I can still feel my tongue and cheek. ::dentist:: |
|
|
|
Post by Cerridwyn on Mar 25, 2013 18:25:34 GMT -8
Paganism as we know it today came after Christianity. I read a really good book about the rise of neo-paganism in Great Britain in the 20th century. I will see if I can find it. That being said, polytheism existed long before Christianity. Whether you mean Odin and the Norse/Germanic pantheon or Jupiter/Zeus of the Greco/Roman pantheon, they predated Christianity. So did Cerridwyn, the Horned God, etc of the Celtic Pantheon. Oh and Ra, Isis and the Egyptian pantheon. And the Egyptians had a turn at monotheism that didn't last very long in Aten.
And there were other similar faiths to Judaism and Christianity in that part of the world. Look up Zoroastriansim or Mirthriasm.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kevin MF Hardy on Mar 25, 2013 18:49:26 GMT -8
We need more of Monty Python's opinion
|
|
|
|
Post by Randalla on Mar 25, 2013 19:36:35 GMT -8
LOL Oh boy, why did I not see a Monty Python drop coming?  |
|
|
|
Post by Cerridwyn on Mar 25, 2013 20:48:56 GMT -8
|
|
