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Post by Indiomaestro on Dec 29, 2012 19:59:52 GMT -8
Wow Max, I am impressed with your logic, well said.
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Post by Randalla on Dec 29, 2012 20:34:37 GMT -8
Do tell....
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Dec 29, 2012 22:39:02 GMT -8
Taking science as an example. The Church has, on more than a few occasions, been on the forefront of science. It was a monk, Mendel, who fathered modern genetics. It was a Jesuit who conceived the Big Band Theory. It was also the Church who helped develop the scientific method. Likewise, the Vatican has it's own observatory, which has some of the greatest physicists working there.
The Inquisition was originally designed to protect the accused. Monarchies would be persecuting non-Christians wrongly. The Church came in and created the Inquisition Courts to determine whether or not the accused were really heretics (which were Christians who were preaching against the Church). If they were not, they gave let them go free. Now, what happened was certain areas, most famous being Spain, essentially hijacked the Court, and abused it.
The Crusades are a bit more ugly, but it comes down to the same thing. The Muslims had aggressively invaded a peaceful Jerusalem, and the pope called upon a Christian army to combat them. What ended up happening, again, were hijacks.
Is this to say the Church is white-clean innocent? Of course not. We've had some really, really bad popes, some awful times of corruption, etc. But the extent and reality is nothing what many would have you believe.
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Post by Randalla on Dec 30, 2012 3:33:25 GMT -8
It was also the Church who helped develop the scientific method. The church may have supported some scientific thoughts that jived with the church's own teachings, but it sure had a habit of attempting to stamp out anything remotely contrary. And back then, stamping out a rival was not simply a matter of agreeing to disagree. Likewise, the Vatican has it's own observatory, which has some of the greatest physicists working there.The church's interest in planetary alignment wasn't initially for the good of mankind--if I remember right, it was spurred by the inaccuracy of the Julian calendar, and the discrepancy of the date on which Easter fell. The Inquisition was originally designed to protect the accused. Monarchies would be persecuting non-Christians wrongly. The Church came in and created the Inquisition Courts to determine whether or not the accused were really heretics (which were Christians who were preaching against the Church). If they were not, they gave let them go free. Now, what happened was certain areas, most famous being Spain, essentially hijacked the Court, and abused it.It was the inquisition that tried Gallileo, forced him to recant under threat of death, and then after he recanted, STILL kept him under house arrest. That's not even scratching the surface of the inquisition. That doesn't sound terribly protective to me. >.> The Crusades are a bit more ugly, but it comes down to the same thing. The Muslims had aggressively invaded a peaceful Jerusalem, and the pope called upon a Christian army to combat them.The crusades were indeed a reaction to muslim aggression--and islam has also had its share of scientific thinkers and inventions that have benefited all of mankind. History any more seems to try and paint peaceful muslims as victims of mean, close minded warmongering christians--but they are just as guilty of the "convert or die" mentality that helped to bring about the crusades. Any way of thinking that claims my god is better than your god can far too easily give way to the interpretation that anyone who doesn't believe in my god should repent their heathen ways and convert, or die. And that's exactly what's happened over the course of history. It's built into the religion itself--thou shalt have no other god before me, or, there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet, etc. To say it's not right to condemn an entire religion because of the actions of a few is a flawed argument, when the religion itself commands its followers to forcibly convert non-believers. I say, it's the enlightenment of the even FEWER number of followers who adopt the "love thy neighbor as thyself" or "to you be your Way, and to me mine" who do their religions a better service than those religions deserve. Is this to say the Church is white-clean innocent? Of course not. We've had some really, really bad popes, some awful times of corruption, etc. But the extent and reality is nothing what many would have you believe.But when a religion is in control of a nation, a region or an empire, any amount of corruption or misguided interpretation isn't just on an isolated scale. It encompasses its entire area of influence. The Catholic church over the already declining Roman empire--for that matter, the paganism of the Roman empire in its hay day, or the polytheism of ancient Egypt. The Catholic church vs. Protestants in Europe. The Puritans and their witch hunts. Mayan and Aztec ritual human sacrifices. Islam and sharia law wherever its particularly detestable influence is exerted. Tiny pockets of corruption can be attributed to groups like the Jonestown kool-aid drinkers, the branch dividians, heaven's gate--they're typically called cults and are only a tiny footnote in the memories of people who remember hearing about them on the news for a day or two. There's a bit of a difference between truly insignificant patches of misguided stupidity, and the wider reaching influence of an actual major religion over entire societies. We luv you long time, Maxman (and anyone else here who happens to consider themselves a religious sort), but I'm afraid trying to say that the extent and reality of religious corruption isn't quite as bad as what we've all learned from history is a bit more optimistic than any church, including the catholic church, really deserves.  God will roast their stomachs in hell
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Post by Cerridwyn on Dec 30, 2012 10:48:52 GMT -8
We, as an organized group, never burned you at the stake, stoned you, held you under water, or otherwise tried to drum you out of resistance. We don't care who you worship, but throughout history, you've cared too much about who others call god.  |
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Post by Amarynth on Dec 30, 2012 13:17:21 GMT -8
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A thousand times over.  I just want to know why this guy thinks all Vegans are witches... And like I'm sure I have said before: I am almost always, 9 times out of 10 personally attacked when people find out my religion. Only recently, my supervisor at my new job, upon finding out that I am also a Rennie, had said to me and I do quote: "Oh My GOD! You're not one of THOSE evil witchy people are YOU???!! You're not going to put a spell on me are you??" No lie...this woman acted like I was some sort of plague carrier. I was truly offended. How is MY hobby of getting dressed up in Medieval clothing, being part of the IWG and interacting with fellow Rennies for a day or two of entertaining fun and wenchiness even correlate with being a witch?? I mean...WTF? Needless to say, I told her why yes, I am Wiccan...but being a Rennie does not always mean one is a witch. I also told her that witches are not evil, and that I am certainly not evil or going to cast a spell on you. I take responsibility for my actions. Well, since my hours have changed and I am working more closely with her, the working environment is rather uncomfortable. I should have stayed on the overnight shift, but am mostly just going to return to relief status and get more rest than I have been. So Max, you may be one of the few, but there are a majority of people out there who simply cannot open their minds to other paths and accept them as they are. I was still wrong for labeling an entire religion based on this ass's views... Also, there's nothing wrong with being Vegan. A plant based diet IS the way to go if you want to live a healthy, long life. |
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Post by Randalla on Dec 30, 2012 15:36:24 GMT -8
Food for thought and further debate, if you consider yourself a part of any particular organized religion, and someone possibly mistakenly lumps you into a broad generalization based on your chosen religion's past. The inquisition happened, as surely as the holocaust happened. Catholics tortured and burned witches and heretics at the stake. Puritans tortured and hanged witches and heretics. Jews stoned blasphemers and heretics. Roman pagans crucified heretics and early Christians, and used them as kibble in the Coliseum. Muslims tortured and beheaded infidels--and frankly, they STILL do to this day. To attempt to minimize it or explain it away as "protection" of the accused is, to me, akin to trying to say the gas chambers were to protect jews during the holocaust. It's just too far of a reach for me to bite. But why are wiccans demonized, as in Ama's example? I even had a holy roller coworker of mine all in a dither when I told her I happened to have several Wiccan friends--she was convinced it was of the devil. Why? What historical occurrence is there to back up this widespread misconception that wiccans are devil worshipping baby eaters? As far as I'm aware, there is no one single event, no wiccan baby eating convention or inquisition. They're demonized simply because the church, back in the day, thought everyone should convert to christianity. Specifically, catholicism. And anything contrary to the church's teachings was heresy. Ok Maxman, your turn again. |
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Post by Indiomaestro on Dec 30, 2012 16:58:53 GMT -8
Whoa, Rand is on fire!
You certainly lit a fire under Rand's feet Max!
Insert witch pun here.
The ball is back in your court Max.
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Post by Randalla on Dec 30, 2012 17:39:41 GMT -8
Lmao! Rawr!  Max knows I'm the friendly neighborhood oddball lesbian tea party agnostic. Lmao! |
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Post by Cerridwyn on Dec 30, 2012 18:35:42 GMT -8
Who is madly in love with a liberal wiccan hippie
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Post by Amarynth on Dec 30, 2012 19:13:05 GMT -8
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Post by Randalla on Dec 30, 2012 19:49:43 GMT -8
Funny how that works... <3 LOL
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Jan 1, 2013 15:17:38 GMT -8
What happens when two Wiccans and. Teanut jump an Irish Catholic? A bar brawl, haha!
Obviously, I have a few things to answer, but I am on a bus for Florida with no wifi and only my thumbs. I will fulfill my research and give a proper response. On the mean time, stay cool.
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Post by Cerridwyn on Jan 1, 2013 19:23:12 GMT -8
My bets on the wiccans (along with their tea nut side kick). Why? Because their female and the Irish Catholic will hae a very difficult time of it striking a woman, e'en a witch.
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Post by Randalla on Jan 1, 2013 20:45:33 GMT -8
LMAO Teanut.... haven't heard that one yet. I like it. I eagerly await Maxman's response. Might not agree with it, but he gives it a good shot. |
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