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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 31, 2012 18:57:48 GMT -8
my posts aren't intended to be propaganda, only the hard left would take it as such and continue to take offence at anothers freedom to doubt the estabolishment, that wants nothing more than to control the masses with lies and corruption. I'll forgive you for comparing me to a hard left liberal. I'm not not insulting your freedom to doubt the establishment (even if I think it's unfounded and irrational), but rather, your freedom to do so to tell people they are wrong and blind. You use such phrases freely, thus making it a propaganda-style campaign.nothing I posted was intended to bring up a politcal discussion, but yet here we are..seems like the right leaning don't automaticly assume that every conspiracy is aimed at the current political party in the White House and in my honest opinion, the corruption extends into both Dems and Repubs. Corruption is wide-spread, no doubt. That I do not challenge. But the reaches of said corruption--such as Mars or 9/11--are charges that don't deserve a whole lot of credibility. And even if the post wasn't intended to be political, you must realize this is an excessively political topic.The evil that is currently in control favors the Dems because of thier tax and spend way of thinking(socialistic?), plus keeping the two parties at eachothers throats hides the the real agenda. which is to keep people in the dark and spread fear across the entire nation, that the "boogie man" is the terrorists/dictators of the world and that we must stay at war with other countries for our safety, when in reality wars equal profit/power. Here I can somewhat agree. I concur that there are influences in Washington that see neither Democrat or Republican, merely power. I will admit fear is a great motivator for unity. However, you insult the families of the victims and the citizens of revolution by calling terrorists and oppressive dictators boogie men. what I see currently is someone that didn't realize that they were about to step on a hornets nest in this thread, bringing thier hard left political ideals to the table to back up the corruption that exists, only to find out that thier ideals aren't as widespread as they had hoped and will now try and backpeddle out of the mess they themselves created(eg.."I love the GOP")..LOL Excuse me? Left political ideals? You should first examine and research your opponent before you fling accusations at them. My dear Door Nail, you are a worthy oppenent, and one I admire with respect. But you praise yourself too much if you think this thread is a hornets nest. Combating Phaedron or my aunt--liberals if I ever did see them--is a challenge. This is just practice. I couldn't care less if my ideals are not as widespread. I truly couldn't give a flying [insert vulgar term here]. Our nation today is crippled by ideological radicalism on both the left and the right. It is possible to be a conservative man and be responsible with their actions. We cannot let ourselves continue to fight against each other, but rather work together. I don't back peddle.you can change my words around to suit all you like, I'm not paying that much attention to the political aspect of this thread, I'm more interested in exposing the truth and waking people up from thier sleep that allows the powers in control to keep them asleep and unaware of the treachery that is going on right infront of them. What you perceive as the truth is an opinion, and to assume the rest of us will so greatly accept it the same is incredulous. Do you assume I am asleep to the government? Do you claim I am ignorant? Because it most assuredly sounds like it. it's a common tactic, called divide and conquer that on one hand lets them know who supports thier wacko ideas("true patriots"=thier own version of patriotism), wile alienating those who oppose said ideals. What IS your version of patriot, and what is the government's? But are you agreeing with the government circulating information or not?the powers that be don't intentionally create conspiracies, its usually whistleblowers that realize they are violating our rights and try to expose the corruption. which more than likely gets them labled as radicals and sometimes killed as they are a threat for speaking out. But wait, why can't the government CREATE whistle blowers to circulate the information? That seems like a much larger ordeal. what's important is that the majority of people see that things aren't as peachy as the main stream media is letting on, do your own research and become aware to info available that may carry some weight and reveal some of the truth. I can agree to that. The media does deceive us, and things are not as grand as they should be. People need to be aware of this. But they don't need paranoid theories shoved to them. They need to do it on their terms without bias. there's a certain group of people that are robbing us blind and telling lies so that they can become even more powerful, we've been deceived for many years already. We can let them continue on the path of destruction or awaken and lock them up. I was listening to this part until you got to path of destruction. I do believe there is a larger force of people who benefit from deception. But destruction? Perhaps injury, but not destruction.
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Post by Randalla on Mar 31, 2012 19:14:52 GMT -8
I'll let that win the thread. LOL
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Post by doornail on Mar 31, 2012 19:48:30 GMT -8
you're trolling Max, but I'll try to address a few points of yours as I don't want to be rude.
incase you missed it, I lost family because of the war mongering powers that are in control now and probably have been since the kennedy assination. I see right through the BS that has kept us at war with something or another for the past 30yrs. It's greed and evil that's driving it, anyone that doesn't see what is happening is only assisting in our own destruction as a country.
yes, you did backpeddle and a wise move it was, so unless you're posting some conspiacy vids/lies or alien stuff, you might want to explain your need to attack everything I post as I personaly see no point in striking up an argument about whatever it is you're trying to argue about.
correct, never claimed otherwise
it does seem that way, yes
the def of ignorant is not knowing, nothing to be ashamed of, that's the deception being applied to many, the truth is being withheld from all of us.
A patriot loves his country and obides by its laws, those laws have been in place for a couple hundred year to protect us, these days those laws/rights are being trampled on and we are letting it happen..we've been a multitude of races for many years, the media blitz to incite a race war/political division is intended to divide and conquer, look what they've done to us by keeping us fighting eachother.
I have to be biased against the corruption, it's now or we're screwed..the dollar is at the brink of collapse due to the BS that's been going on in DC(mostly by printing money), the truth needs to come out if we value our freedoms that we cherish.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 31, 2012 20:33:48 GMT -8
you're trolling Max, but I'll try to address a few points of yours as I don't want to be rude. Troll? Ha! The conspiracy theorist is the ultimate troll. You have no room to talk. incase you missed it, I lost family because of the war mongering powers that are in control now and probably have been since the kennedy assination. I see right through the BS that has kept us at war with something or another for the past 30yrs. It's greed and evil that's driving it, anyone that doesn't see what is happening is only assisting in our own destruction as a country. I'm sorry for your loss. I truly am. Were they soldier? They deserve every ounce of respect and gratitude for their sacrifice to the nation. But I'm sorry: I can't agree that every conflict we've been in has some evil plot. yes, you did backpeddle and a wise move it was, so unless you're posting some conspiacy vids/lies or alien stuff, you might want to explain your need to attack everything I post as I personaly see no point in striking up an argument about whatever it is you're trying to argue about. I'm sorry, I must have missed when I back peddled. I haven't changed my position on anything. I am criticizing conspiracy theories in general, and you just so happen to be the main advocate of conspiracies. This is a thread to discuss conspiracies, and I am discussing them to criticize them.correct, never claimed otherwise And yet you call it the truth. Interesting.it does seem that way, yes Then reexamine your perception. the def of ignorant is not knowing, nothing to be ashamed of, that's the deception being applied to many, the truth is being withheld from all of us. Thanks again for calling me ignorant. You sound just like my liberal aunt.A patriot loves his country and obides by its laws, those laws have been in place for a couple hundred year to protect us, these days those laws/rights are being trampled on and we are letting it happen..we've been a multitude of races for many years, the media blitz to incite a race war/political division is intended to divide and conquer, look what they've done to us by keeping us fighting each other. What laws and rights are being tramped on? Yes, I agree: currently the administration threatens my religious freedoms through the HHS mandate. But people are speaking up, and legally fighting it! How can the be blindness to government? And you don't need the media for racism. That's human. I have to be biased against the corruption, it's now or we're screwed..the dollar is at the brink of collapse due to the BS that's been going on in DC(mostly by printing money), the truth needs to come out if we value our freedoms that we cherish. Thing is, the dollar has been on the verge of collapse for a while. And it did in the '40s. And look what happened? We came our pretty damn good.
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Post by doornail on Mar 31, 2012 20:50:16 GMT -8
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Post by doornail on Mar 31, 2012 21:17:11 GMT -8
I'm posting vids and adding my own opinions about the topics of the vid, you on the other hand have aimed your participation in this thread directed at an individual poster instead of the "conspiracy" that is the particular vid posted, thats called trolling.
this says you didn't read
negative, that's only what has been fed into our brains. there is alot of good people in every race, we've moved past the racial divide years ago..you're either good or you're evil these days.
it may be alot worse than we're currently being spoonfed by the media..I read somewhere that the Fed just bought 60% of our debt, if that's true then the powers that be just added an approximate 2 trillion dollars more on us and the next generation..I'll see if I can find it
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Mar 31, 2012 21:32:48 GMT -8
I'm posting vids and adding my own opinions about the topics of the vid, you on the other hand have aimed your participation in this thread directed at an individual poster instead of the "conspiracy" that is the particular vid posted, thats called trolling. And if there was anyone else in this thread who was so adamant about conspiracies, I'd be replying to them. You are an advocate. I must then discredit the advocate to discredit conspiracies. this says you didn't read You know what, I'm sorry. I was trying to be polite and courteous. I didn't remember if you had mentioned them before or not. Sorry. negative, that's only what has been fed into our brains. there is alot of good people in every race, we've moved past the racial divide years ago..you're either good or you're evil these days. You live in an ideal world. Altered human condition dictates the majority will discriminate against those unlike themselves. If the minority grows to challenge majorities, you get bitter racism. It's not fed; it's built. And your cultural ideologies is amusing, but unrealistic. It was easier to see who was evil and good before. Now, it's more of a blur. I agree there is a definite good and definite bad. But who those people are is blurred.it may be alot worse than we're currently being spoonfed by the media..I read somewhere that the Fed just bought 60% of our debt, if that's true then the powers that be just added an approximate 2 trillion dollars more on us and the next generation..I'll see if I can find it I'd love to look at that, so please do.
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Post by Randalla on Mar 31, 2012 22:30:10 GMT -8
Ok let's settle down, here's where I'm going to step in a little more abruptly than I have before:
I'm not sure if we're on the same page by that meaning, but I don't like the way it reads to me right now.
Line drawn, boys, no attacking and discrediting each other in order to discredit the links and thoughts that are posted. You're perfectly welcome to say I don't believe it or I'm not a fan--I'm not a fan of a lot of conspiracy theories, either, and you guys aren't a fan of some of mine.
Let's keep it so that sharing is caring, and not actually attack or discredit anyone personally who's brave enough to post this wild stuff.
I'm pretty sure we can discuss the message, without attacking the messenger, which is why I decided to open these kinds of topics up for discussion in the first place.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Apr 1, 2012 6:17:25 GMT -8
Rand taking all my fun away. Doornail, sorry If I came off hot and a little harsh. When I mean by discredit its not to attack you personally. Multiple times it is much simpler--though not always easier--to make the advocate an unreliable source. If I succeed on that, then anything you say on conspiracies must be questioned doubly. I responded the way I do because I have a very hard time swallowing people calling me blind, ignorant, or a slave. That's my point. An I still attest I am not a troll. That's what the OWF is for.
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Post by doornail on Apr 1, 2012 7:18:00 GMT -8
no worries, some of these are a pretty big pill to swallow and I kinda expected some resitance for showing some of these vids, as some of them are disturbing and it's understandable that one of the first reactions displayed by most would be of denial.
people can and will do thier own research on a particular subject and come to thier own conclusions reguardless of any of my opinions.
when I speak to others in real life about some of these conspiracies it usually leads to disbelief almost immediatly, people don't want to see that something may be wrong with our country and the powers that be want to keep it that way.
I myself struggle to believe some of these and it probably would'nt be hard to fall into a conspiracy theory overload, where it could possibly comsume someone to the point of causing extra unwanted stress in thier life.
some of these are real tho and there will always be static to keep them hidden from the public.
the monsanto thing is real and affecting us all, tampering with genetics that ends up in our food supply is dangerous and has been going on for atleast 10 years. one can only speculate at the consequences for fooling around with nature.
HAARP is real too, there may be a benefit to change the weather, but at what cost? the weather is crazy enough already.
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Post by phaedron on Apr 1, 2012 11:09:17 GMT -8
Kudos to Max for acting as the voice of scientific inquiry in this thread... he's done an entirely worthy job of supporting the notion that only through observation, experimentation, and analysis of data, can we actually draw a legitimate conclusion about a series of events.
However, I've gotta draw a direct comparison here between religion and conspiracy theories. No, I'm not saying they are the same thing. But they do rely on the same principle... in both cases, one needs to have faith in their veracity, because by their very nature they are completely unprovable through the scientific method.
A youtube video provides me, as a scientist, no more legitimate proof than the Shroud of Turin or a copy of the Holy Bible.
Doornail, you are certainly free to draw whatever conclusions you may like about events like 9/11, the Moon landing, JFK's assassination, or whatever. But they are just about as based in scientific fact as the tooth fairy, gremlins, or monsters that hide under the bed.
Even if we fall back upon the principles of logic, and remove science from the equation, we get something roughly like this:
A) The Federal Government hasn't always been truthful with us (here, even scientists agree).
B) The particular event in question involved some degree of participation by The Federal Government.
C) Thus, the event described in B) couldn't possibly have happened the way we think, because A) was involved.
This is a logical fallacy. If A implies X, and B implies Y, you can't possibly assume B also implies X. There's no correlation.
That being said, have fun to your hearts' content in this thread. I've said what I need to say and would be happy to debate along these lines. What I will NOT do however, is debate something that is completely outside of my ability to measure, record, and analyze using the scientific method, in exactly the same way I'd never take it upon myself to debate the existence of God with Max. It's not possible.
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Post by Maximillian Thorton on Apr 1, 2012 11:26:26 GMT -8
Kudos to Max for acting as the voice of scientific inquiry in this thread... he's done an entirely worthy job of supporting the notion that only through observation, experimentation, and analysis of data, can we actually draw a legitimate conclusion about a series of events. God, I've missed you, Phae. However, I've gotta draw a direct comparison here between religion and conspiracy theories. No, I'm not saying they are the same thing. But they do rely on the same principle... in both cases, one needs to have faith in their veracity, because by their very nature they are completely unprovable through the scientific method. I concur. It is a complete reliance on a type of faith. It can never be universal truth, even if we are completely resolute in it. To be an evangelist, one has to realize this. This holds true for advocates of conspiracies.A youtube video provides me, as a scientist, no more legitimate proof than the Shroud of Turin or a copy of the Holy Bible. And the Shroud of Turin is still being questioned by the Vatican. They've released no official announcement on it. And the Vatican has one of the most intense research and examination processes in the world when it comes to supernatural items and experiences. If they didn't, then any validity they hold would be nothing.
Doornail, you are certainly free to draw whatever conclusions you may like about events like 9/11, the Moon landing, JFK's assassination, or whatever. But they are just about as based in scientific fact as the tooth fairy, gremlins, or monsters that hide under the bed. This.Even if we fall back upon the principles of logic, and remove science from the equation, we get something roughly like this: A) The Federal Government hasn't always been truthful with us (here, even scientists agree). B) The particular event in question involved some degree of participation by The Federal Government. C) Thus, the event described in B) couldn't possibly have happened the way we think, because A) was involved. This is a logical fallacy. If A implies X, and B implies Y, you can't possibly assume B also implies X. There's no correlation. I've said it before, I say it again. Phaedron, will you marry me? I could't get this idea in words. So thank you for that.That being said, have fun to your hearts' content in this thread. I've said what I need to say and would be happy to debate along these lines. What I will NOT do however, is debate something that is completely outside of my ability to measure, record, and analyze using the scientific method, in exactly the same way I'd never take it upon myself to debate the existence of God with Max. It's not possible. The precise reason I haven't spoken on a specific conspiracy.
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Post by phaedron on Apr 1, 2012 11:43:20 GMT -8
It's nice to see you too, buddy
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Post by Randalla on Apr 1, 2012 13:23:03 GMT -8
PHAE! Welcome back! Also, I know I'm a killjoy--I don't mean I don't want to see devil's advocates on either side, and I don't mind the two sides pitching at all. I just want to make very clear that we're not to attack each other if we disbelieve the other's beliefs or theories. Counterpoint is one thing. And yes, the OWF is the troll litterbox, I prefer it to stay that way. Damned dust and litter gets EVERYWHERE. Did I mention WELCOME BACK PHAE!?
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Post by doornail on Apr 1, 2012 15:51:44 GMT -8
ahh, the unwavering scientific truth approach to everything "if I can't measure it,test it or poke it..It doesn't exist!" lol hmm, I wonder how many people got burned at the stake for making such claims as "the earth is round" or the one time belief that "the universe revolves around the earth"..what about the "missing link" of human evolution the so called great scientists of the world keep looking for? science isn't always right about everything, infact it isn't uncommon for science to be wrong. here's a few examples of a few scientific masterminds of history that dropped the ball. The Expanding Earth theory Our modern understanding of the interior and behaviors of the Earth is strongly based around plate tectonics and the concept of subduction. But before this idea was widely accepted in the late 20th century, a good number of scientists subscribed to the much more fantastical theory that the Earth was forever increasing in volume. The expanding Earth hypothesis stated that phenomena like underwater mountain ranges and continental drift could be explained by the fact that the planet was gradually growing larger. As the globe’s size grew, proponents argued, the distances between continents would increase, as would the Earth’s crust, which would have explained the creation of new mountains. The theory has a long and storied past, beginning with Darwin, who briefly tinkered with it before casting it aside, and Nikola Tesla, who compared the process to that of the expansion of a dying star. yes, I think we can consider Nikola Tesla to be one of the greatest minds in history. Einstein’s Static Universe Prior to scientists embracing the notion that the universe was created as the result of the Big Bang, it was commonly believed that the size of the universe was an unchanging constant—it had always been the size it was, and always would be. The idea stated that that the total volume of the universe was effectively fixed, and that the whole construct operated as a closed system. The theory found its biggest adherent in Albert Einstein—the Static Universe is often known as “Einstein’s Universe”—who argued in favor of it and even calculated it into his theory of general relativity. another great mind of history, altho he really goofed on that idea didn't he? Fleischmann and Pons’s Cold Fusion While the conditions required to create nuclear energy usually require extreme temperatures—think of the processes that power the sun—the theory of cold fusion states that such a reaction is possible at room temperature. It’s a deceivingly simple concept, but the implications are spectacular: if a nuclear reaction could occur at room temperature, then an abundance of energy could be created without the dangerous waste that results from nuclear power plants. This groundbreaking theory briefly seemed to have become a reality in 1989, when the electro-chemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons published experimental results suggesting that they had achieved cold fusion—and the precious “excess energy” it was hoped to produce—in an experiment where an electric current was run through seawater and a metal called Palladium. The response to Pons and Fleischmann’s claims by the media and the scientific community was overwhelming. The experiments were hailed as a turning point in science, and it was briefly believed that with cold fusion energy would be cheap, clean, and abundant. guess what these guys were? that's correct Ladies and Gents, they were scientists! everything a scientist says is always correct and everything else is just a "fairy tale" close-minded definition : Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas./ not ready to receive to new ideas
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