Gun Control Discussion :D

OoOoOo you must have known this would drag me out of the woodwork.

That page's responses were a little too cheeky for me, so here I am to put some seriousness to it. You probably already know what I'm all about, but I'm saying it anyway.




should guns be banned?

Hell no, and aside from the usual selfish reasons like "I like to hunt" (which I don't), or "I like my guns" (which I do), this is the only reason we need as Americans:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



should people be allowed to own and use guns?

Hell yes. See above.


are guns effective or necessary for self-defense?

Absolutely. You can feel safe and secure with your baseball bat if you like, but a criminal with a gun will make short work of you with your baseball bat. Hell, even with a knife instead of a gun, a criminal scumbag can still overpower you and slit your throat. I'd prefer not to let someone get close enough to me to be able to do that.

How bout the police, you may ask? How long does your local police department take to respond to a 911 call, assuming you even have the opportunity to get a call out? The running gag is in some places, pizza delivery will get to your house faster than the police. How long do you think it takes a criminal to get a hold of you while you're waiting for the police?

The mother in Georgia who had to shoot her attacker 5 times in the face--her attacker was trying to drag her out of her crawlspace while her husband was relaying the information to the dispatcher. The police hadn't even arrived before she had to shoot her attacker--AND the attacker managed to live, flee the house and drive down the road despite it all. Damn shame the fucker lived, I'll be the one to say it right here and now, and if you think I'm a horrible person for it, then I guess I'm a horrible person.

Call the police, you say. How bout that horrible story where two attackers raped a mother and one of her two daughters, beat the father almost to death, then set their house on fire while the police were still gathering uselessly outside the house like fucking keystone cops? The only survivor was the father--the mother and daughters burned with the house because the cops were useless.


do guns promote or reduce violence?

Check out the countries that ban guns. Check out the cities and states with harsh gun laws that ONLY have an iota of effect on the LAW ABIDING citizens. Chicago, California, you'll find some of the worst crime rates in the country. Mexico has some of the most draconian gun control laws, would YOU want to live there with all of the rampant corruption, crime and drug cartels running amok? I wouldn't.

What about the nutcases who have pulled off these horrible mass shootings? They've been carried out in the midst of so called "assault weapon" bans, or in "gun free zones". Wonder why? Because criminals don't follow laws. The rest of us, however, do--and we're the ones being castrated and prevented from defending ourselves from the criminal element by these ridiculous restrictions. They go where they know damn good and well they won't face much, if any resistance.

There's not one damn criminal in California or New York who's gonna say, aw shit, now I gotta turn in all those 30 round magazines I've been saving up. And guess what? The morons who shoved that ridiculous series of laws through overnight in New York failed to allow their own law enforcement officers an exemption from their stupid 7 round bullshit. So guess what? Criminals are still going to have their 30 round magazines--us law abiding citizens, even the POLICE, are stuck with this 7 round bullshit.



WE are not the problem. WE do not go around shooting up schools. WE NEED to be able to defend ourselves from the criminal scum who don't follow laws in the first place. If that means I need to fend off a multiple scum home invasion with my AR-15 and multiple rounds, BY GOD I ought to fucking be able to do it.


Real short, simple and sweet -- there are already laws against murder. That includes with hammers, rocks, vehicles, knives, pillows, bare hands, etc. Does that stop scumbags from breaking said laws? Have we outlawed knives, rocks, pillows, ropes, vehicles, wrenches, or anything else that could possibly be used to kill someone just because it can possibly be used to kill someone?


Criminalizing a law abiding citizen who exercises their constitutional right to keep and bear arms is criminal in itself. I call it TREASON.


I can get into the ACTUAL intent of the second amendment and defense from a tyrannical government in a whole new post if it's wanted.

Now, why not tell us what you really feel?

I actually held back a little. ;D


*****

Studies were done years ago on Rats. The scientists involved built a huge rat enclosure and put in a couple breeding pair of rats and made sure there was always a ton of food.

We assume animals kill for food or mating, not much else. Well this was controlled for, making sure there was always enough food and always enough females as the colony grew.

I honestly don't remember what the population density was, but eventually, the rats started killing each other.

Well, I'm not sure about rats, even if I call myself one as a term of endearment. Animals are animals, it could just have to do with territory, passing on the genetics, whatever goes on in those little rat brains of theirs. We're a bit more advanced than rats, but yaknow, some people are just born bad. Chemical imbalance? Upbringing? Genetics? Criminals will be criminals, and I think our sorely lacking mental health field deserves more attention. Not sure if that has anything to do with your rat study, but it IS an unfortunate truth. Mental health is like a taboo that nobody wants to touch with a 100 foot pole. Nevermind studying rats, let's put that time and energy into human behavior.

*****

The unprovable conclusion - population density? Is it any surprise that these things happen where population is at a crunch? Now, I'm a city girl. But if you already are going to have issues, if you lived along time ago, you'd probably go off and live as a holy hermit and people would ignore you mostly and leave you food.

There's always Jack the Ripper. How bout Bloody Mary? Locusta? Cain? I'm not sure I buy the population crunch. Mental health? See above.

*****

If I had the right people I could show you that they really do not make a difference in more than 50% of the cases. And CDC research showed (before the NRA forced congress to withdraw funding) that more people are harmed by their own weapons or harm other non-combatants, than harm another when using them for defense.

There are folks who cook the books when it comes to number crunching the difference between crime rates in gun control areas vs. areas without strict gun control. Friendly fire or accidentals are bound to happen with anything--I smashed my own finger with the end of a stapler the other day because I was careless--but gun safety is another matter. Being careless with a stapler, at worst, will get my finger bruised or maybe stapled, worst case scenario. Being careless with a gun could get myself or others killed, and I take that very seriously. Others should, too, and those who don't give a bad name to the rest of us. It happens, it's bound to happen just as sure as I smashed my finger with that stapler, but the number crunching has been skewed to demonize responsible owners.

Furthermore, if anyone thinks that having guns for self defense doesn't make a difference, ask the mother who had to shoot the scumbag who tried to pull her out of her crawlspace what would have happened if she didn't have her gun. Ask the young mother in Oklahoma who had to shoot two intruders who were trying to break into her house--her kid was still a baby, even. Ask store clerks who have been robed at gunpoint. How bout a teenager who used his dad's shotgun to shoot a creepn crud who broke into his house when his parents were gone? There are MANY MANY such instances, and I'd rather those who choose to arm themselves for their own protection be able to defend themselves as they see fit--and I sure as hell want law abiding citizens to be AT LEAST AS WELL EQUIPPED as any scumbag off the street, who will have those illegal 30 round magazines, because they don't give a rat's ass that there's a law out there that says they can't kill another human being, much less one that says they can't have more than 7 or 10 bullets in a mag.

*****

The most sensible solution I have heard yet came from someone I know, a former volunteer sheriff, who grew up with guns, has several and knows how to use them. She believes that if you have to have a license to drive care and in many communities now, go throw a class on how to use it safely that the same should be required of gun owners. And those licenses (notice I don't say permits, there is a difference) should be renewed regularly, just like driver's licenses and again like with a driver's license, if you want a different class of weapon, you are required a different set of classes and a different class of license.

In California, and many other states, you do in fact have to not only take a written test to BUY guns, which has to be renewed every 5 years (mine expires in 2016, matter of fact), but you also have to go through a background check for EVERY purchase, AND you can't purchase more than one gun every 30 days. On top of that, here's what you have to go through just to APPLY for a CCW permit:

Proof of residence, two proofs of ID, multiple page application including a good cause statement, in which you have to specifically state why you need to be able to carry concealed. This application can even be denied without any reason whatsoever, depending on what kind of mood the sheriff is in on any given day. You're lucky to get past this stage anywhere in California, but if you ARE lucky enough to get an approval, you're not finished.

You then have to provide your certificate of training (which costs about 80 bucks depending on the agency you go through to obtain your certificate), birth certificate, another 189 bucks, and then you get fingerprinted and ANOTHER background check. AND THEN, you don't even get your card until 8-10 weeks AFTER the fingerprinting has been processed.

After you have your CCW card, you have to renew your training certificate and re-qualify with the weapons you list on your application every couple of years, else your card will expire, and you'll have to go through the whole process all over again from scratch.

Do I mind the background checks? Nope, I can pass any hoops you wanna throw at me, because I'm not a criminal scumbag.

Do I mind the training requirements? Absolutely not, I think it's a good idea for everyone to train, and to know the possible consequences of carrying, and god forbid, having to use deadly force as a last resort. Know what you're getting into, it's serious business, with potentially serious consequences.

Do I mind the renewal requirements? Nope.

Do I mind the good cause statement and the ability for another individual to accept or deny my application based on their own personal beliefs, or their possible rotten mood on a given day, or their prejudice against, say, women wanting to arm themselves (has happened, don't think it hasn't), yes, absolutely I do mind that part. If I'm willing to go through the training, pay the fees, jump through all the legal hoops required to carry, I don't think another individual has the right to deny my application based on anything other than the result of my background check.


Coincidentally, it does require a totally different license and whole 'nother set of hoops to jump through to be able to possess fully automatic weapons--so yes, there are plenty of requirements, restrictions, and hoops to jump through to be able to LAWFULLY buy, possess and carry. Unfortunately, criminals pay no attention to any of this.

*****

Does that make this old hippy happy? No. Could I live with it? Yes, more than anything else anyone has proposed. I thank the lord and lady every day that my child is grown and out of schools that the NRA thinks are safer with guns. I thank them also that she made the rational decision that she refuses to bring a child into this horrible troubled world we live in.

I happen to think a teacher that goes through all the above steps to be able to purchase, possess and carry their weapon legally, kids are going to be safer than those known gun-free-zones criminals specifically target in order to go out with the most horrendous effect. If the principal at Sandy Hook had had a weapon instead of her bare hands when she bravely tried to charge the shooter during his spree, the end result may have been much different. Just because you don't like guns, doesn't mean they cause chaos, death and destruction in trained, responsible hands. A trained teacher is THERE on the spot--police have to be called out, set up perimeter, determine the situation from the outside, precious precious time is wasted during all that time, when a trained teacher is able to respond immediately, on the spot. Does it mean I think all teachers should be ordered to go get training and have a gun on hand? Nope, only the ones who already have that frame of mind and the desire to carry. It's not everyone's cup of tea, I understand that--but for those of us who DO want to go through all those hoops, I surely wish the ones who DON'T would stop trying to make ME (and other responsible owners like me) out to be a monster for it.

*****

If magick were real and I had to sacrifice my own life to make every gun/bomb/etc in the world disappear and/or no longer work, I would do it in a heartbeat, because it would make it a better world.


You know, it's a wonderful, rose colored vision and all, but you realize horrible acts and wars have happened before the invention of gun powder and guns. War is a terrible thing, whether people kill each other with stones, knives, arrows, swords, burning at the stake, or whether it's with guns and bombs.


Cain used a rock.
Locusta used poison.
Nero fiddled while Rome burned.
Jack the Ripper used a knife.
Timothy McVeigh used cow shit and a moving truck.

I am not going to hurt anyone with my guns, as long as they don't try to hurt me first, of course.

Well said Randalla.

But this document is archaic. It was written before nations created standing armies. Well regulated militias are not necessary to the security of a free state anymore -- in fact, quite the opposite, since an honest, loving free state that would allow a tyrranical despot with a cult-like, hate-based following to form a militia risks itself.

It was mostly flippant.


If the system that can be abused like that without recourse to help from the government, then I recommend you work to change it. But I think that work has already been done. Old West style shoot-'em-ups ought to remain a thing of the past, not be celebrated as a right.

I'm pro-control.

Even more so because there was a shootout at one of the main campuses of a university I went to/still visit often today.

Dunno, it seems like the gun control the have in the majority of European countries seems to work.